when i observe pvp i just dont get it - Guild Wars Forums

sabutai · Apr 17, 2007, 05:15 PM // 17:15

it just seems there is no real strategy or plan, this watching high ranked guilds go at it

i come from dark age of camelot (5 years) and WoW (2 years) why is nobody assist training the monks? in those games we are all on vent and have our dps train on healers and other soft targets...but it just appears everyone is attacking whoever.

why not have 3 high dps classes designated to focus on 1 person, kill and move on? on a game i just watched a warrior was on a monk, he was hitting him hard, but when monk was healed he pulled off the target, why not have 3 guys working together to spike dps on a guy, destroy him and move onto the next monk

this games pvp just baffles me...i dont have the time anymore due to a new baby to be hardcore anymore, but looking at this it seems if any hardcore guild that came to gw from daoc or wow they would run this place

maybe there is something i'm not seeing, res signets etc but i am just puzzled...there just doesnt seem to be enough people dying in 20 minutes of pvp combat...to me it looks like its because everyone is off doing his own thing...this was watching good guilds fight each other...no more than 1 player seemed to be on a single target at 1 time

zorbi · Apr 17, 2007, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Well I think the monks in this game are very powerful healers and are the only primary healer class in the game so even 3 man spike can't kill him if there's other monk healing him too.

sabutai · Apr 17, 2007, 05:28 PM // 17:28

wouldnt the 2 or 3 monks run out of mana fast trying to heal the target monk with a dedicated dps team on him? then with that monk dead the dps team rolls on to the next oop monk?

like i said there is maybe something i'm just not getting, as i am new to gw and just observing, but what i'v seen is contrary to everything i'v learned about mmrpg pvp strategy

or does every class having a res signet/subclass monks create a conundrum that makes the strategy i speak of ineffectual?

Yanman.be · Apr 17, 2007, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Because of protection monks. 1 spell and your entire train is useless for the length of the spell, or untill it gets removed.

You also need to build adrenaline on your warriors. It's best done on seperate targets, so they get protted less.

You can die very fast in GW, due to spikes ( I don't know about DaoC ). That's why most people prefer spikes. Spikes don't require trains. They try to bypass healing/prot.

Antheus · Apr 17, 2007, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabutai

wouldnt the 2 or 3 monks run out of mana fast trying to heal the target monk with a dedicated dps team on him? then with that monk dead the dps team rolls on to the next oop monk?

like i said there is maybe something i'm just not getting, as i am new to gw and just observing, but what i'v seen is contrary to everything i'v learned about mmrpg pvp strategy

There's very few healing monks in pvp. Protection is where it's at.

So you have 8 of your team ganking a single monk. The 2/3 monks on opposing team put up: Prot spirit, Shield of Absorption, Aegis, Guardian, Spirit bond, and a few more, while the rest of the team keeps your attackers dazed, blinded, blurred, crippled, and more.

So you have 8 of your team doing 0 damage to single target, and no damage to 7 other targets, which meanwhile decimate your team.

Pvp in GW is about strategy and organization. Gank fests don't work. Spiking for most part is only viable method of somewhat reliably kill a single target, and in many cases it takes at least some practice to pull off.

Granted, you can bring heavy enchant removal as many do. There's gimmick builds that can roll some teams. There's build combinations which are inferior in given match.

But what you're regarding as pvp strategy is mindless ganking that is devoid of any strategy or tactics. Another reason you cannot gank in GW is due to balance - there are no high/low level problems, no item/grind factors, no superior/inferior class issues - it all comes down to 1) choice of build 2) strategy employed. Ganking healers is usually not one of those - although spiking one team member is frequently viable, especially squishy targets such as mesmers.

Thomas.knbk · Apr 17, 2007, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Monk Stomp sucks.
Evaluate what target you can take out the easiest, and which target is the greatest threat to your party. (making sure you don't die is more important than making sure they do) Based on that, pick your priority target. Because the 'healer' will never be the greatest threat to your party, he is rarely the number one priority target.
You can say 'but the healer makes sure the biggest threat to your party doesn't die', but frankly, most of the time it doesn't work that way.
Look at it this way: all casters have 60 armor (not counting in bonuses, which will most likely be equal over all casters anyway, so it doesn't matter). If you target a monk, you spend an amount of energy on it, and eventually the monk may even die, but your party still faces the same threats. However, if you put that energy in killing an offensive caster, or even a warrior, he might die as well, and your party takes a reduced amount of pressure for a moment (till your target gets a res)
Also, Guild Wars is built so that trains don't really work. Protection Prayers, which are present in practically every build, such as Guardian, Shield of Absorption, Spirit Bond, Protective Sprit, Shielding Hands etc. take care of that, so targeting one person won't work to begin with. It did for a while with Avatar of Grenth, which basically lets your team ignore the prots, but that was just broken and it got nerfed.
The best way to apply pressure is to constantly switch targets to stay ahead of the protection spells, and tempt their 'healers' waste their energy on needless protting and overhealing.
Target selection is (one of the) most complicated aspect(s) of Guild Wars, and I can't really capture it in one post, but please assume there is a great deal of strategy involved, but Guild Wars is not WoW or Starcraft or any other game. Monk Stomp doesn't work.

Carboplatin · Apr 17, 2007, 05:41 PM // 17:41

very easy to heal one person, but not easy to heal 5 at a time, assumning they are all getting a good amount of damage. which one do you think will make the healer run out of energy faster?

Yichi · Apr 17, 2007, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Well remember, while u have targets on your monks, they can have targets on yours. Monks arent always the primary target. While being the obvious choice to attack, its more involved in that as the other team is going to collapse on hatevers hurting your monks. Aka. if a Mesmer is energy denying your monks, then something should be done to force that Mesmer out of the picture to give your monks some breathing room. If an Ele is constantly snaring your team, hindering your movement, find a way to shut down that Ele. Your targets will always depend on 2 things. What will hurt their team and collapse their defense, and what is hurting your team and your defense.

Suprisingly, there are many builds and guilds out there that run that punch in the face style build. [cow] is a very good example of this. They run very little defensive builds, and just basically run in to break you as fast as possible. Its high dps, highly offensive and in the right situation with the right players will work very effectively.

Training a Monk does not always mean they will be out of energy. There is always another monk for support, and many other classes and factors can contribute to saving your Monk. The Monk can kite away from the warriors, thus forcing them into your backline and overextending from their monks, making them volunerable. Ele's can blind, or snare melee targets that are training your monks and allow them to miss or have a very slowed mobility. Necro's and Mesmers can curse and hex targets to slow the attack rate on melee targets and can effectively shut them down to where they are attacking far less than your monks can effectively heal.

And lastly, there have been a few guilds that have come from DAoC that have done very well. Mostly Harmless [MH] is probably the best example of this that comes to mind. Many players that are in other top guilds have also played DAoC. But pvp in GW, is far different from the battlegrounds or RvR in the frontier, although GW2 seems to be going in the RvR direction with the limited info we have about it and seeing how much I liked RvR in DAoC, it looks promising

deadmonkey4u · Apr 17, 2007, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Theirs a wide variety of reasons. As everyone said you can't train some guy due to prot. They can prot him up to take minimal damage then the monks have a easy time. They can't exactly prot up many targets at once as well. Not to mention the prot is less effective when targets are split (in terms of how much damage the prot reduces). Thus, the offense is usually spike, pressure, or both.

Splitting and attacking other targets also reduces the pressure on your monks.

sabutai · Apr 17, 2007, 06:09 PM // 18:09

ok like i said i just dont get it from perspective of games i'v played

daoc for example, its 8 man groups, 4 of them at least are dps heavy classes...those toons all assist on healers/dps spellcasters

in a matter of 30 seconds the assist train has all the healers dead and its just a matter of mop up for the victor

i'm not hating on gw pvp, but i just dont understand why at least 2 guys arent working together on the same target...seems even in this game 2 on 1 is better than 1 on 1

i'm not even just saying the monks, but train somebody

Yichi · Apr 17, 2007, 06:37 PM // 18:37

because the dps skills, targets, buffs, etc. in DAoC are stronger and the targets are different. Its like asking an apple why its not an orange. Both games have a tremendously different pvp playstyle to where certian tactics that may work in one, will not work when playing the other.

Sisyphean · Apr 17, 2007, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Coming from WoW, I had some of the same confusion as you... until I played a Warrior in RA for a while.

Make a PvP only Warrior and try to focus down a monk in RA. It might take a few matches to find a monk using a good combo of protection skills, but when you do it'll be a real shock - at least it was to me.

Many builds can basically use one spell and become immune (through either dodging or blocking) to physical DPS, meaning as a warrior you can't hit him, can't build adrenalin, can't interrupt him, it's just a waste of your time. I'm not as familiar with the spells that GvG monks run to protect themselves from magic damage, but I'm sure there are plenty of options.

Basically, there are just skills and skill combos available in Guild Wars that offer defense beyond anything possible in WoW or DaOC. This means there is more emphasis on pressuring multiple targets, and assist trains are only really effective situationally - when someone is overextended or their Monks are low on energy.

I found after playing RA for a couple evenings with an Elementalist or Warrior, I just had to let go of everything I had gotten used to in WoW, and rethink my ideas about playing a damage class completely.

Suffice to say I was quite happy to do this, as I was getting pretty sick of the only real strategy being 'everyone kill the healer!!' and fights lasting 20 seconds...

Thomas.knbk · Apr 17, 2007, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabutai

i just dont understand why at least 2 guys arent working together on the same target

Because focussing prots on the trained target owns that hard. Thrust me.

Hell Raiser · Apr 17, 2007, 07:51 PM // 19:51

As a monk, I know how easy it is to prot a trained target. Since Protection is far better than Healing (currently, I hope to see this changed), it is in many builds. Relieving pressure from your Monks (or other soft targets) is far more advantageous than killing their Monks. If your whole team trains a target, the monks only need to concentrate on that single target, instead of widespread pressure. There is no rush, if you watch some GvGs you can see how some people get a few kills, rush into the enemies base, and get rolled.

It's incredible; the amount of people who think monk stomping is the way to win. I've seen it, many times: the Wa/Mo spams to attack the monk, maybe even gets a kill, but because the other team's pressure is untouched, the Wa/Mo's team loses.

strcpy · Apr 17, 2007, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabutai

ok like i said i just dont get it from perspective of games i'v played

daoc for example, its 8 man groups, 4 of them at least are dps heavy classes...those toons all assist on healers/dps spellcasters

in a matter of 30 seconds the assist train has all the healers dead and its just a matter of mop up for the victor

i'm not hating on gw pvp, but i just dont understand why at least 2 guys arent working together on the same target...seems even in this game 2 on 1 is better than 1 on 1

i'm not even just saying the monks, but train somebody

I pvp very little, however I have played GW long enough to see why. It is easy to keep the following up on one person:

[skill]protective spirit[/skill][skill]Shield of Absorption[/skill][skill]Aegis[/skill][skill]Guardian[/skill][skill]Spirit bond[/skill]

You will note that it doesn't take much to stop an attack train - if you can not do much damage, can not hit the target, and what little damage you do is both negated and healed then your gone (not to mention the other classes have AoE conditions). Those aren't that high a cost and can *easily* be kept up on one, maybe even two people. Because of this a 55monk (drop your max health down to 55hp so that prot spirit limits each attacks max damage to 5) can absorb damage for pretty much forever unless you remove enchants or use health stealing skills that bypass prot-spirit (of course, with those two things they die instantly, but they should get the point across of what is occurring here).

There are places in PvE where the same thing occurs - a prot monk or two (especially a boss) means you can not train or spike a single enemy. You have to spread your damage out so they can not focus enough skills on one - though you still usually kill with a spike, spreading out means they do not know who will be the target. If the computer AI is generally able to stop something from happening then you can be sure that humans can.

Thomas.knbk · Apr 17, 2007, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

Because of this a 55monk (drop your max health down to 55hp so that prot spirit limits each attacks max damage to 5)

The guy is asking a legit question about PvP. Let's leave the PvE farm builds out of it.
People are right. The protection skills are very powerful, and enchant removal is not. As a damage dealer, you constantly have to switch targets to unprotted enemies. That's pretty much the only way to get kills exept for spike.

TedTheDead · Apr 17, 2007, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Man you have some serious PvE angst lol. A 55 build is a flawless example of the entire point of almost every single post on this thread. The fact it is used in PvE to farm has no relavance to counter the example. Its simple, in GW damage reduction/negation skills make targeting one target much less effective than spreading the damage around and keeping up pressure and eventually breaking the monks energy reserves to stop it.

As a side note:
I've watced more than one PvP video where someone ran a 55 build and could not be killed because they decided not to bring enchantment removal lol. And not just in RA.

HawkofStorms · Apr 17, 2007, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Pfft wow Ted. Somebody ran a 55 in PvP. Umm okay so he couldn't be killed. Could he do damage? No. Could he run relics? No more effectively then a ele or ranger since he can still be snared and knockdowned. Did the other team have interupts of any kind if they didn't have enchant removal?

Anyway, trust me Sabutai, there is a lot of stuff going on in Observer Mode you don't see. Its tough to follow who the casters are targetting for example. Also, most high end (niegh, ALL high end) guilds use some form of voice chat program. You really lose out not being able to hear what is going on. It really helps getting inside people's heads.

There is a logic to it. Now, as for comparing it to other games, I'll just say they each have their own mechanics. What works in one, does not work well in another. For example, in hockey, its a great tactic to check somebody into the wall to keep them from the puck. Do that in basketball and its a technical.
Different games, different rules, different gameplay, different tactics.

ss1986v2 · Apr 17, 2007, 10:41 PM // 22:41

if your train is dealing no dmg, why would you keep it up? thats why. train one enemy, he gets all the protection, negating all of your dmg.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabutai

wouldnt the 2 or 3 monks run out of mana fast trying to heal the target monk with a dedicated dps team on him? then with that monk dead the dps team rolls on to the next oop monk?

short answer, no. it doesnt take the entire monks mana pool, just 2 or 3 spells and he is set. in gw, you cant just train a target and steamroll him, grenth derv aside. you just wont be able to kill your target that way.

dgb · Apr 17, 2007, 11:14 PM // 23:14

There's a reason every decent monk in PVP has at least some points in protection prayers...

It's to ensure that DPS trains go absolutely nowhere.

Why is everyone doing their own thing? Because they are trying to stay ahead of the protection, moving target to target before they get heavily protted. Then they come together for spikes and split again.

For example if you just trained a character, you'll end up trying to kill it through the following.

[skill]Protective Spirit[/skill][skill]Spirit Bond[/skill][skill]Shield of Absorption[/skill][skill]Weapon Of Warding[/skill]

That's just half of it as well, not to mention that any damage that does amange to leak through can get healed.

Apr 17, 2007, 05:15 PM // 17:15	#1
sabutai Academy Page Join Date: Apr 2007 Profession: W/	when i observe pvp i just dont get it it just seems there is no real strategy or plan, this watching high ranked guilds go at it i come from dark age of camelot (5 years) and WoW (2 years) why is nobody assist training the monks? in those games we are all on vent and have our dps train on healers and other soft targets...but it just appears everyone is attacking whoever. why not have 3 high dps classes designated to focus on 1 person, kill and move on? on a game i just watched a warrior was on a monk, he was hitting him hard, but when monk was healed he pulled off the target, why not have 3 guys working together to spike dps on a guy, destroy him and move onto the next monk this games pvp just baffles me...i dont have the time anymore due to a new baby to be hardcore anymore, but looking at this it seems if any hardcore guild that came to gw from daoc or wow they would run this place maybe there is something i'm not seeing, res signets etc but i am just puzzled...there just doesnt seem to be enough people dying in 20 minutes of pvp combat...to me it looks like its because everyone is off doing his own thing...this was watching good guilds fight each other...no more than 1 player seemed to be on a single target at 1 time Last edited by sabutai; Apr 17, 2007 at 05:21 PM // 17:21..

Apr 17, 2007, 05:28 PM // 17:28	#3
sabutai Academy Page Join Date: Apr 2007 Profession: W/	wouldnt the 2 or 3 monks run out of mana fast trying to heal the target monk with a dedicated dps team on him? then with that monk dead the dps team rolls on to the next oop monk? like i said there is maybe something i'm just not getting, as i am new to gw and just observing, but what i'v seen is contrary to everything i'v learned about mmrpg pvp strategy or does every class having a res signet/subclass monks create a conundrum that makes the strategy i speak of ineffectual? Last edited by sabutai; Apr 17, 2007 at 05:31 PM // 17:31..

Apr 17, 2007, 06:09 PM // 18:09	#10
sabutai Academy Page Join Date: Apr 2007 Profession: W/	ok like i said i just dont get it from perspective of games i'v played daoc for example, its 8 man groups, 4 of them at least are dps heavy classes...those toons all assist on healers/dps spellcasters in a matter of 30 seconds the assist train has all the healers dead and its just a matter of mop up for the victor i'm not hating on gw pvp, but i just dont understand why at least 2 guys arent working together on the same target...seems even in this game 2 on 1 is better than 1 on 1 i'm not even just saying the monks, but train somebody Last edited by sabutai; Apr 17, 2007 at 06:21 PM // 18:21..

Apr 17, 2007, 06:53 PM // 18:53	#12
Sisyphean Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Mar 2007	Coming from WoW, I had some of the same confusion as you... until I played a Warrior in RA for a while. Make a PvP only Warrior and try to focus down a monk in RA. It might take a few matches to find a monk using a good combo of protection skills, but when you do it'll be a real shock - at least it was to me. Many builds can basically use one spell and become immune (through either dodging or blocking) to physical DPS, meaning as a warrior you can't hit him, can't build adrenalin, can't interrupt him, it's just a waste of your time. I'm not as familiar with the spells that GvG monks run to protect themselves from magic damage, but I'm sure there are plenty of options. Basically, there are just skills and skill combos available in Guild Wars that offer defense beyond anything possible in WoW or DaOC. This means there is more emphasis on pressuring multiple targets, and assist trains are only really effective situationally - when someone is overextended or their Monks are low on energy. I found after playing RA for a couple evenings with an Elementalist or Warrior, I just had to let go of everything I had gotten used to in WoW, and rethink my ideas about playing a damage class completely. Suffice to say I was quite happy to do this, as I was getting pretty sick of the only real strategy being 'everyone kill the healer!!' and fights lasting 20 seconds... Last edited by Sisyphean; Apr 17, 2007 at 07:00 PM // 19:00..

Apr 17, 2007, 05:20 PM // 17:20	#2
zorbi Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Oct 2006	Well I think the monks in this game are very powerful healers and are the only primary healer class in the game so even 3 man spike can't kill him if there's other monk healing him too.

Apr 17, 2007, 05:36 PM // 17:36	#4
Yanman.be Banned Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Belgium Guild: [ROSE] Profession: A/	Because of protection monks. 1 spell and your entire train is useless for the length of the spell, or untill it gets removed. You also need to build adrenaline on your warriors. It's best done on seperate targets, so they get protted less. You can die very fast in GW, due to spikes ( I don't know about DaoC ). That's why most people prefer spikes. Spikes don't require trains. They try to bypass healing/prot.

Apr 17, 2007, 05:40 PM // 17:40	#6
Thomas.knbk Forge Runner Join Date: Jul 2006	Monk Stomp sucks. Evaluate what target you can take out the easiest, and which target is the greatest threat to your party. (making sure you don't die is more important than making sure they do) Based on that, pick your priority target. Because the 'healer' will never be the greatest threat to your party, he is rarely the number one priority target. You can say 'but the healer makes sure the biggest threat to your party doesn't die', but frankly, most of the time it doesn't work that way. Look at it this way: all casters have 60 armor (not counting in bonuses, which will most likely be equal over all casters anyway, so it doesn't matter). If you target a monk, you spend an amount of energy on it, and eventually the monk may even die, but your party still faces the same threats. However, if you put that energy in killing an offensive caster, or even a warrior, he might die as well, and your party takes a reduced amount of pressure for a moment (till your target gets a res) Also, Guild Wars is built so that trains don't really work. Protection Prayers, which are present in practically every build, such as Guardian, Shield of Absorption, Spirit Bond, Protective Sprit, Shielding Hands etc. take care of that, so targeting one person won't work to begin with. It did for a while with Avatar of Grenth, which basically lets your team ignore the prots, but that was just broken and it got nerfed. The best way to apply pressure is to constantly switch targets to stay ahead of the protection spells, and tempt their 'healers' waste their energy on needless protting and overhealing. Target selection is (one of the) most complicated aspect(s) of Guild Wars, and I can't really capture it in one post, but please assume there is a great deal of strategy involved, but Guild Wars is not WoW or Starcraft or any other game. Monk Stomp doesn't work.

Apr 17, 2007, 05:41 PM // 17:41	#7
Carboplatin Jungle Guide Join Date: Jul 2005 Guild: [PIG] Profession: W/A	very easy to heal one person, but not easy to heal 5 at a time, assumning they are all getting a good amount of damage. which one do you think will make the healer run out of energy faster?

Apr 17, 2007, 05:47 PM // 17:47	#8
Yichi Furnace Stoker Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Guild Hall, Vent, Guesting, PvE, or the occasional HA match... Guild: Dark Alley [dR]	Well remember, while u have targets on your monks, they can have targets on yours. Monks arent always the primary target. While being the obvious choice to attack, its more involved in that as the other team is going to collapse on hatevers hurting your monks. Aka. if a Mesmer is energy denying your monks, then something should be done to force that Mesmer out of the picture to give your monks some breathing room. If an Ele is constantly snaring your team, hindering your movement, find a way to shut down that Ele. Your targets will always depend on 2 things. What will hurt their team and collapse their defense, and what is hurting your team and your defense. Suprisingly, there are many builds and guilds out there that run that punch in the face style build. [cow] is a very good example of this. They run very little defensive builds, and just basically run in to break you as fast as possible. Its high dps, highly offensive and in the right situation with the right players will work very effectively. Training a Monk does not always mean they will be out of energy. There is always another monk for support, and many other classes and factors can contribute to saving your Monk. The Monk can kite away from the warriors, thus forcing them into your backline and overextending from their monks, making them volunerable. Ele's can blind, or snare melee targets that are training your monks and allow them to miss or have a very slowed mobility. Necro's and Mesmers can curse and hex targets to slow the attack rate on melee targets and can effectively shut them down to where they are attacking far less than your monks can effectively heal. And lastly, there have been a few guilds that have come from DAoC that have done very well. Mostly Harmless [MH] is probably the best example of this that comes to mind. Many players that are in other top guilds have also played DAoC. But pvp in GW, is far different from the battlegrounds or RvR in the frontier, although GW2 seems to be going in the RvR direction with the limited info we have about it and seeing how much I liked RvR in DAoC, it looks promising

Apr 17, 2007, 05:54 PM // 17:54	#9
deadmonkey4u Jungle Guide Join Date: Nov 2005 Guild: Hoser Down[HD]	Theirs a wide variety of reasons. As everyone said you can't train some guy due to prot. They can prot him up to take minimal damage then the monks have a easy time. They can't exactly prot up many targets at once as well. Not to mention the prot is less effective when targets are split (in terms of how much damage the prot reduces). Thus, the offense is usually spike, pressure, or both. Splitting and attacking other targets also reduces the pressure on your monks.

Apr 17, 2007, 06:37 PM // 18:37	#11
Yichi Furnace Stoker Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Guild Hall, Vent, Guesting, PvE, or the occasional HA match... Guild: Dark Alley [dR]	because the dps skills, targets, buffs, etc. in DAoC are stronger and the targets are different. Its like asking an apple why its not an orange. Both games have a tremendously different pvp playstyle to where certian tactics that may work in one, will not work when playing the other.

Apr 17, 2007, 07:51 PM // 19:51	#14
Hell Raiser Forge Runner Join Date: Dec 2005 Guild: [PHNX] Profession: Mo/	As a monk, I know how easy it is to prot a trained target. Since Protection is far better than Healing (currently, I hope to see this changed), it is in many builds. Relieving pressure from your Monks (or other soft targets) is far more advantageous than killing their Monks. If your whole team trains a target, the monks only need to concentrate on that single target, instead of widespread pressure. There is no rush, if you watch some GvGs you can see how some people get a few kills, rush into the enemies base, and get rolled. It's incredible; the amount of people who think monk stomping is the way to win. I've seen it, many times: the Wa/Mo spams to attack the monk, maybe even gets a kill, but because the other team's pressure is untouched, the Wa/Mo's team loses.

Apr 17, 2007, 08:58 PM // 20:58	#17
TedTheDead Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Feb 2007 Guild: Sons of Metal Profession: N/	Man you have some serious PvE angst lol. A 55 build is a flawless example of the entire point of almost every single post on this thread. The fact it is used in PvE to farm has no relavance to counter the example. Its simple, in GW damage reduction/negation skills make targeting one target much less effective than spreading the damage around and keeping up pressure and eventually breaking the monks energy reserves to stop it. As a side note: I've watced more than one PvP video where someone ran a 55 build and could not be killed because they decided not to bring enchantment removal lol. And not just in RA.

Apr 17, 2007, 10:29 PM // 22:29	#18
HawkofStorms Hall Hero Join Date: Aug 2005 Profession: E/	Pfft wow Ted. Somebody ran a 55 in PvP. Umm okay so he couldn't be killed. Could he do damage? No. Could he run relics? No more effectively then a ele or ranger since he can still be snared and knockdowned. Did the other team have interupts of any kind if they didn't have enchant removal? Anyway, trust me Sabutai, there is a lot of stuff going on in Observer Mode you don't see. Its tough to follow who the casters are targetting for example. Also, most high end (niegh, ALL high end) guilds use some form of voice chat program. You really lose out not being able to hear what is going on. It really helps getting inside people's heads. There is a logic to it. Now, as for comparing it to other games, I'll just say they each have their own mechanics. What works in one, does not work well in another. For example, in hockey, its a great tactic to check somebody into the wall to keep them from the puck. Do that in basketball and its a technical. Different games, different rules, different gameplay, different tactics.

Apr 17, 2007, 11:14 PM // 23:14	#20
dgb Jungle Guide Join Date: Sep 2005 Profession: Mo/Me	There's a reason every decent monk in PVP has at least some points in protection prayers... It's to ensure that DPS trains go absolutely nowhere. Why is everyone doing their own thing? Because they are trying to stay ahead of the protection, moving target to target before they get heavily protted. Then they come together for spikes and split again. For example if you just trained a character, you'll end up trying to kill it through the following. [skill]Protective Spirit[/skill][skill]Spirit Bond[/skill][skill]Shield of Absorption[/skill][skill]Weapon Of Warding[/skill] That's just half of it as well, not to mention that any damage that does amange to leak through can get healed.